O/T Tonight's vote

Discussion in 'Bulletin Board' started by ReadingRed, Jan 15, 2019.

  1. Farnham_Red

    Farnham_Red Administrator Staff Member Admin

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    I thought the Daily mash was supposed to be satire - this is pretty much an accurate summary of where we are
    https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/all-options-ruled-out-20190116181417




    I am at a loss as to where we go from here but crashing out with no deal - for which there was no mandate in the referendum or in parliament is looking more and more likely as someone needs to actively do something to avoid it and I cant see either May or Corbyn making that happen
     
  2. leebrilleaux

    leebrilleaux Well-Known Member

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    Then I would suggest looking again, only this time with your own eyes and no-one else's.
     
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  3. Wel

    Wellsie Well-Known Member

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    Whatever he says or does he gives him ammo, he literally can't win because they've made up their mind on him.
     
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  4. AthersleyRed

    AthersleyRed Well-Known Member

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    Even IF we have a second referendum, there would be no doubt that it will be a big swing to either leave or remain. This time the public have had 2+ years of facts and lessons to be learned from this whole debacle. People will either be put off even more with EU or they will call it quits, remain and move on. The incessant lies and smokescreen we were forcefed before the ref was a disgrace and a second referendum would be much more conclusive.
     
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  5. Marlon

    Marlon Well-Known Member

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    No it’s not suggesting that at all tbh.
    I’m not a legal minded person so I don’t know whether it’s illegal or not what the tories have done but if it isn’t it should be .
    What my post is suggesting or in fact saying is that due diligence and proper procedures weren’t gone into before the referendum was cast among the people .
    Only with hindsight are we finding to what costs and possible damage we are inflicting upon ourselves only this time hindsight is becoming clearer with the chance to halt it and clear it once and for all
     
  6. Farnham_Red

    Farnham_Red Administrator Staff Member Admin

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    I dont share your confidence I am afraid I think the majority of voters will vote the same way again - there may be a swing of a few percent but I would be very surprised if there was more than a 45:55 split between leave and remain. True there are remainers who have said that they think the first vote should be respectred and so would vote leave and there are leavers who now they understand the issues better have said they would now vote remain but I think its a small percentage
    of course there are 2 years of deaths in the mostly leave voting category and more younger - remain voters who are now 18 but I have no confidence a second referendum will give us clarity.
     
  7. Dan

    DannyWilsonLovechild Well-Known Member

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    With labours stance, and mays stance, I really can’t see anything but extreme Brexit and utter disaster. I can’t even tell you the expletives being said by business owners and senior managements, out of time, no idea, nobody budging... over the cliff we go because May wants to protect the eurosceptic handful.

    I wonder if Grieve has some mechanisms to usurp this dreadful govt. it only needs around 10 to support a no confidence motion. But labour would have to support a moderate Tory to take over... and Corbyn will never do that.
     
  8. Nor

    North Yorks Red Well-Known Member

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    No I'm saying that Corbyn has had ages to form a credible opposition and he's failed,big time. The Tory party were and still are sitting ducks and he can't hit them.
    Labour should therefore get shut and get somebody who appeals to the masses, including many traditional Labour voters who just won't back him.
     
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  9. Marlon

    Marlon Well-Known Member

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    But he has brought many traditional voters back . Many who said they wouldn’t vote labour ever again .
    Labour membership has gone through the roof .
    Record numbers of people voted labour in the last elections with some constituencies gaining more percentage of votes than ever before . And yet the media were still pouring scorn and saying they weren’t voting for him .
    It’s a media campaign against him you have no proof of the charges you have lain against him nor does the media .
    The only weapon they have is a media campaign that try’s to tell voters the opposite of what’s happening . Obviously it’s working for s few .
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2019
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  10. Donny Red

    Donny Red Well-Known Member

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    What I can't understand in all of this mess, is that before Xmas a total of 117 Tory MP's
    expressed a vote of no confidence in Theresa May in a leadership challenge and yet that
    same number voted against Corbyns no confidence motion yesterday.
    She is at the despatch box on a daily basis, but privately every single spineless Tory MP
    know that she's a busted flush and in political terms is finished. If Jeremy Corbyn was as inept as
    she and her supporters claim, why aren't they clamouring for a General Election.??
    They watched the speeches made at the Labours Annual Conference and the Party Political
    broadcast last night and know that JC's pledge to end fuel poverty, fund the NHS properly,
    end food banks and attempt to find a solution to rough sleeping etc and generally provide hope
    to make Britain a fairer place to live is genuine. The wheels have come off for this hopeless Government
    who will be remembered as the worst Administration probably in the history of modern politics.
    Mays days as PM are truly numbered. Repairing the damage that she and her supporters have caused
    will be very difficult but repairing the hurt and injustice and bringing hope and unity back to the citizens
    of this country can only commence when May and her cohorts are eventually consigned to the political dustbin
    by an Electorate who deserve better.
     
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  11. Marlon

    Marlon Well-Known Member

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    Good post
    And it’s exactly why they won’t hold a general election because people are so fed up of this inept farce of a govt.
    Not one commentator has mentioned the vote of no confidence brought by Conservative back benches in prime time tv and asked why they brought that and then rejected Labours not one .
    They relying on their old tactic of letting their media friends to spread ill gotten non facts about our leaders to hopefully gain some momentum because they have none .
    It seems to be working in some quarters mind .
     
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  12. Dan

    DannyWilsonLovechild Well-Known Member

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    Slight problem with all of this... Labour only have 256 seats. Miles short of a majority. Gordon Brown managed 258 in 2010.

    If Corbyn continues to act against the majority of members wishes in wanting to remain, or at least have a referendum, the membership is expected to fall considerably.
     
  13. BFC Dave

    BFC Dave Well-Known Member

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    But it is a different vote isn't it ? one is to change the leader but stay in power. The other is to possibly lose their seat.
     
  14. PLOBBY

    PLOBBY Well-Known Member

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    The two votes of no/confidence were entirely different .
     
  15. Dan

    DannyWilsonLovechild Well-Known Member

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    Thing is, there are a huge amount of people who voted at the last election for Corbyn, because they had a hope he might stop Brexit, or at least numbers in his party may push that way. So the Remain vote largely went to Labour, but many of those areas were already Labour, so like in my constituency, the majorities went through the roof.

    If you called an election tomorrow, I think a good number of remainers may well swing back to Lib Dem (thought they aren't very visible), and I think that would nibble some who swung Tory and some who swung Labour. You might find ukip or some farage endorsed mob may pick up a few seats, but I don't see a massive swing to Labour and the way huge majorities built up for a large share of vote, actually skew the poor net return of seats they got.

    if you're voting as a pure vote to try and remain, Labour isn't where you'd put your vote.

    Some of the claims I understand (though don't believe) how they may be seen as interesting to some, but I've heard far too many parrot efforts on the media from what would be a cabinet and it frightens me to death. To imagine Richard Burgon in a cabinet... good god, that's scary.

    So yes, I think many pure socialist voters will want and like the rhetoric of Corbyn, but there are many many centrist pro EU people who are highly unimpressed, and not because of media bias (though its obviously there and highly right leaning).
     
  16. Austiniho

    Austiniho Well-Known Member

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    Sensible, for who?

    Let’s say I was buying a car from you... I could walk away or buy it. However if I am forced to definitely buy it from you, the price is going to go up... similar, without that bargaining chip of a no deal... we may as well ask the EU to write our leaving deal.

    It doesn’t have to happen, but to go into negotiations without it would be ridiculous.
     
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  17. Donny Red

    Donny Red Well-Known Member

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    I accept that Plobby, but they took the view that they had no confidence in her leadership before Christmas.
    If May and the Tory party were honourable people , after that defeat, she should have either been replaced
    or she should have walked. She's a total liability that has presided over some disastrous policies in the past
    and yet has been allowed to remain in office. The current Brexit mess is all her own doing and Tory MP's
    in TV interviews distance themselves from her efforts by constantly referring to it as " the Prime Ministers deal."!
    She's now holding talks with members of other parties to attempt to garner their opinions, but she's 29 months too
    late. She will go back to Parliament on Monday, but nothing will have changed, because to deter any other Member
    leaving the European Union , as recently outlined by Merkel and Macron it's impossible to make the changes necessary
    to overturn the massive majority " Mays deal " was defeated by. So where do we go from here.?
    Does she start again now incorporating the wishes of the other parties? Ask the EU to extend Article 50 ( that's what
    Brussels are apparently preparing for), will she permit a second referendum ( unlikely because it will take too long),
    will there be a Coup by Parliaments so called " Supergroup" of MP's who have already tried to grab control.
    Is it possible that the 1922 Committee have a word if she loses the support of the Cabinet and tell her time is up
    and she's got to go ( like they did with Thatcher). That would clear the way for them to do what they have done in
    the past , ( re- Lord Alec Douglas Hume) install a Lord of the Realm revoke Article 50 which doesn't need permission
    from Brussels and effectively at their peril cancel Brexit. My money is on an extension to Article 50 .
     
  18. Dan

    DannyWilsonLovechild Well-Known Member

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    There can only be two outcomes at this stage as so much time has been purposefully squandered. No deal and all its implications. Or an extension to A50. Extending A50 buys time to formulate a workable plan that doesn't create huge self harm in the short term at the very least, and allows time to prepare a ratification vote. But to create a workable plan, something has to give. I thin its criminal if May puts this plan back to parliament to be voted on again, and from early suggestions post discussions with numerous people, that seems likely. I think her strategy is squeak it through by one vote if she can and try and keep the tory party intact. I can't see how it can possibly work, but she's so entrenched and bloody minded, that's all she can focus on.
     
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  19. Dar

    Darfield138 Well-Known Member

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    Donny, she is a useless politician and, as someone who voted out, I think she has done her country a great wrong in how she has gone about this. I think the Tory MPs didnt vote her out because if they had, there wasn't a candidate they could have agreed on. As usual with the Tories we may have ended up with some compromise candidate, but the Tory MPs possibly felt they were voting for a leadership contest that would have ripped the party apart if either a Europhile or a Brexiteer had been elected
     
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  20. Donny Red

    Donny Red Well-Known Member

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    Thing is, according to Bernard Jenkins a Tory MP on the Daily Politics show, if she eventually does get " her" deal through Parliament, it doesn't automatically guarantee us a deal with the EU Members. It gives a mandate for the UK Government to say what it wants to see in terms of a final deal, which then permits discussions and negotiations to start to take place.
    She hasn't got time between now and the leave date during March to do that. I don't think the House will ever countenance a No Deal scenario, so for me, the extension to Article 50 seems to be the only sensible option.
     

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