Second referendum

Discussion in 'Bulletin Board' started by Homer, Dec 13, 2018.

  1. dek

    dekparker Well-Known Member

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    dear oh dear,i must be one of the uneducated 17'5 million
     
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  2. Bar

    BarnsleyReds Well-Known Member

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    I think 99% of the electorate was uneducated with regards to the brexit vote.

    I did a hell of a lot of research, and I still felt uneducated. We pay politicians to research and to make these decisions. They should have done so
     
  3. PLOBBY

    PLOBBY Well-Known Member

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    Have you read the blokes post's ? I think , like it or not he knows his bananas .
     
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  4. Old Goat

    Old Goat Well-Known Member

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    French marmalade. What, you don't have a Brexit box?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46111085
     
  5. Old Goat

    Old Goat Well-Known Member

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    I'll have to take your word for it. I'm having to skip any posts that are longer than two paragraphs otherwise I'd be stuck in this thread till 29 March. I honestly don't know how people find the time to read all this stuff, never mind write it.
     
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  6. Dan

    DannyWilsonLovechild Well-Known Member

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    I'll say this.... in the European stakes... we take some beating when it comes to creating panic. Petrol, water, pot noodles..... god knows what will have people queuing out of doors and sleeping out over night for!
     
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  7. Marlon

    Marlon Well-Known Member

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    No Pot Noodles !!!
    I’ll have my yellow vest on and a pick axe handle.les miserables!!
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2018
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  8. Dar

    Darfield138 Well-Known Member

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    I also remember labour promised us a referendum on the Lisbon treaty in the 2005 election and just plain lied to us as we didn't get one. Brown signed it on his own as he felt too emb
    I have to disagree with your point there. There are only very restricted reasons a member state could object to such a deal, the most commonly used one being national security which doesn't apply to margarine and chocolate. Developing eu countries have had numerous grants that involve jobs being shifted in their favour, latest being jaguar factory in Slovakia that has at least £125 million in state and EU aid. Meanwhile the belgium steel industry had to hand back state aid when the Chinese dumped a shitload of subsidised steel into Europe in 2016. Tories didn't even try but result would have been the same if they had. Drive past the shut down steel plant in redcar occasionally
     
  9. Dan

    DannyWilsonLovechild Well-Known Member

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    Your issue should be with globalisation, not the EU. Just wait til AI technology is enhanced, driverless vehicles will wipe out massive amounts of jobs. Is that the EU's fault? And just wait til Africa gets competitive and offers the ability to provide low skilled low priced output. In the search for efficiency, the west has handed over many of its assets. Our economy isn't very competitive. Our workforces one of the least productive. It's hardly a wonder that businesses move away is it? Through choice, not because of the big bad EU. And watch how many move and scale down as Brexit occurs, let alone if the worst possible outcome occurs. I don't think people realise just how much work many big businesses have done already in this respect.
     
  10. dek

    dekparker Well-Known Member

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    theres a lot of companies that have shifted from western europe (particularly thr uk) over to former eastern block countries and they've done so because of cheaper operating costs,the capitalism that is the EU are targeting their low wages, you see this free movement of people and goods does make it exceedingly easy for companies to do this and the EU grants help too., there are reasons the EU masters wanted these countries in the block and this is one of them..The free movement of goods that are also tarrif free allow places like Slovakia to nick our jobs and products then sell them back to us, the EU then gives us grants to make sure the infrastructure is there to distribute these goods,ie, build the countless warehouses that you see throughout the country to store and shift the products , our manufacturers have gone to cheaper pastures only to be replaced by lower paid service jobs,hence one of the reasons wages are now lower here,
    The EU , set up by capitalists for capitalists, they then try to keep the masses happy by offering guaranteed hol and sick pay in places that previously did not have these benefits, in an effort to make the EU appear caring.
     
  11. Farnham_Red

    Farnham_Red Administrator Staff Member Admin

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    One thing I know is Dekparker and I are never going to agree. I don't for one moment say the EU is without faults but all the evidence I can find points to the benefits significantly outweighing the faults
    As far as Dek us concerned he can only see negatives and dismisses positives as either non existent or not important.
    He would prefer a Britain governed by a right wing clique that is overriding the wishes of parliament and leave with no deal because he thinks that either large scale job losses will not happen and the average standard of living fall significantly(something I think is inevitable if we do leave with no deal) or does know this will happen but doesn't care. I dont think anything will get us on the same side here
     
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  12. Dan

    DannyWilsonLovechild Well-Known Member

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    I thought it started as a good conversation... but each comment becomes more swivel eyed and conspiracy led. Its amazing how neurotic and demonised some people feel about something that has probably hardly even impacted on their daily life, and ever decreases to the zero sum of "those foreigners stole our jobs and stole our women" (sic Dartington). Business can choose where it goes, and does. Did the EU force call centres to India and the subcontinent? tech and software development the same? Did the EU destroy coal, steel and textiles? Or maybe its simple market forces and UK consumers who have shifted to cheap and easy rather than quality, ethical and value based.

    I've said before, I know many businesses that have already started winding down operations and gearing them up in mainland Europe, ad surprisingly its still not being picked up by the media. The scale of building in many EU countries is incredible compared to the UK. Latvia, Estonia, Italy, Austria, Portugal, Luxembourg, Denmark. I've seen the new airports, the new tram systems, the new underground extensions, the new roads, the new business parks, the new office spaces with my very own eyes.

    This will be worsened through Brexit. If we were to believe such people, the EU has people purposefully forcing business to move from our saviour... Britain... to the big evil nasty Europe (boo hiss)… its proper batsh*t crazy.
     
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  13. Dar

    Darfield138 Well-Known Member

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    I thought both Farnham red and dek parker had been reasonable, even though they disagreed. Dan, in answer to your point about infrastructure, many of the infrastructure projects you will be referring to will be part funded at least by EU grants. The funding by the EU of the Dearne Valley link road was one of a couple of positives I found in the EU, I just came to a conclusion that 20 years on the benefits were being outweighed by other negatives. The natural consequence of EU expansion into countres with drastically poorer economies, whatever the intention, has meant access to a cheaper labour pool and them being given grants and state aid we can no longer access (but contribute to). It is not market forces when the market is being artificially skewed. It all might have worked if the EU had insisted on minimum wages and workers rights to match the western EU countries.
    In Hungary last weekend workers took to the streets to demonstrate against the Government proposals (they call slave laws) to make workers work an average 400 hours overtime a year with up to 3 years deferred before they are paid. How can anybody compete with that or why would they want to?
     
  14. Dan

    DannyWilsonLovechild Well-Known Member

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    Yes, some will be grants from the EU and South Yorkshire accessed significant Obj1 and 2 in the early 2000's. But where was the UK funding and business support? Ah yes, the RDA's were slashed and training budgets were canned. what significant investment has been made in S Yorks in the last decade and why is that the case? The Eu aren't perfect at all, but they are blamed for many things they just aren't responsible for.

    The Eu are also funding regeneration of old artefacts and funding archaeology, I've seen that in numerous places. Greece, among them.

    But the convenient fact that's being lost is globalisation. The EU isn't responsible for this. It's not responsible for our historic companies to be sold to Chinese, American, Thai, South Korean etc businesses. These are shareholder choices proposed by boards and directors. And as said before.. businesses approach the loan and grant schemes. The Eu don't hunt companies down to give money away.

    By all means blame the EU... but who do you blame for our loss of manufacturing? Core functions being outsourced outside of the EU. Cheap goods pretty much all being made in China, Taiwan, Vietnam and Indonesia? You really should visit those places if you think the EU have cheap labour.
     
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  15. dek

    dekparker Well-Known Member

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    you've got me all wrong

    i know full well there are positives to the eu,but i honestly think the way the eu has evolved is all wrong.

    companies will always seek cheaper operating costs but there is an ever growing list of uk companies that have shifted to former eastern block countries with the aid of the EU and to me this is wrong,if the EU had done more in the way of aid to keep these manufacturing jobs here then i would be more receptive towards them,it is no coincidence that these eastern bloc countries were drafted into the eu and before long large manufacturers were moving over to them..like i say,free movement and tarrif free exports allow these companies a seamless transition to ship goods back here,goods that were one made here

    i certainly do not want to be governed by a right wing government but if some of you think the eu is socialist then you are mistaken,the eu was set up and funded by capitalists for their own agenda and that is to ring fence their interests from the rest of the world..the few benefits that people enjoy in most jobs these days were already in place where workers had good union representation.

    The relationship with the eu has got that deep that people are now frightened to get out because they fear for their jobs,i feel this is unhealthy,job insecurity is rife throughout europe ,industries have been decimated throughout europe,there is unrest throughout europe,we are seeing the rise of right wing politics and this is down to the fact that the people are growing ever tired of the way the eu is evolving,the eu has caused this to happen, ,..but oh no,its respective governments to blame and not the one common denominator with is the eu governing body.

    all that is bad is courtesy of each countries respective government but all that is good is because of the eu,,aye alright......

    neurotic and demonising,dont make me laugh,

    17.5 million voted out,they cant all be wrong and neither are they all thick,bigots,demonisers,uneducated or neurotic

    sorry farnham,i also replied to lovechild in this response.
     
  16. Dan

    DannyWilsonLovechild Well-Known Member

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    You started off really well, I respected your opinion, at first, as I originally said. But you have become increasingly conspiracy led and condescending to our European neighbours. You might not have even noticed the shift. Shame. But sadly, its not uncommon. Neither is the victim card. Neither is trying to polarise someone in a debate to adopt the extreme opposite stance by inferring they accept everything and sundry. But anyway, we'll agree to differ and each be thankful we can't understand the opposites respective stances.

    Oh, and the difference in vote was just 1.8%. That's tiny. A 0.9% swing brings a tie. That's tiny.
     
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  17. Farnham_Red

    Farnham_Red Administrator Staff Member Admin

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    Thanks for the reasoned reply - I still dont agree with your position but there we are .
    I'd counter that 16.2 million cant all be wrong either especially as I dont think all 17.5 million voted for us leaving with no deal -bearing in mind one of the 2 main thrusts of the Leave campain was we would be better off out - save £350million a week, easiest trade deal in history etc

    I do agree the EU isnt very socialist - but it s lot more socialist than any Tory government we have had in my life time and arguably than the Blair Labour one as well.

    But if I accept the majority was just in favour of leaving its hard to see how the May government could have done a worse job of managing the leaving process - it basically seems to be Mays views on nasty foreigners coming here that was the prime driver of the negotiation. There are ways of leaving that could have been much better for bringing together a severely split population and less of a shock to the economy. Undoing 40 years of integeration in less than 2 was always going to be a problem if we tried to do too much in one go.
     
  18. dek

    dekparker Well-Known Member

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    i have not been condescending to our european neighbours and nowhere have i had a go at the european people, my 'little' frenchies or ities etc was a reference to people who refer to leave voters here as 'little englanders,i was merely wondering if those of our european neighbours are referred to in the same way, I think you knew this all along but chose to infer i was having a go at the people.

    your reply is patronising at best

    the swing was 1,269,501 votes,enough to fill a large city,so not so tiny, stats eh. these stats were big enough to trigger brexit ;-)
     
  19. dek

    dekparker Well-Known Member

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    i've never said they are wrong farnham , the fact that i dont agree with them does not make them all wrong

    imo the EU is just another extension of capitalism that is running world economics

    i agree,there are better ways of conducting brexit,however i think both the eu and the tories are in cahoots to keep us tied in , imo they all pee in the same pot
     
  20. Dan

    DannyWilsonLovechild Well-Known Member

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    Not at all, you were being condescending to European neighbours, completely against where the conversation had meandered and totally uncalled for. You can badge it however you like after the event, but it was condescending and you know it.

    My response to you outlined my view of what you said and the tone you were using. To be condescending I would either have to state or infer I felt superior to you. I don't. We have differences that can't be reconciled, that's all.

    There isn't a swing. A swing would have to occur in a future vote. The gap was 1.269m votes. Which would require a 0.9% swing to neutralise. Seeing as approx. 500-600k people die in the UK every year, and the older generations were significantly more likely to vote leave, combined with the younger voters now able to vote for the first time who are more likely to vote remain, you might just see (if all votes stayed constant), the vote would be overturned.. in just a 2 year period with nature merely taking its course.
     

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