Second referendum

Discussion in 'Bulletin Board' started by Homer, Dec 13, 2018.

  1. Farnham_Red

    Farnham_Red Administrator Staff Member Admin

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    Oh dear the Wife has bought some Stollen - am I allowed to enjoy that or should I just stick to mince pies and Christmas cake with Wensleydale cheese
     
  2. dek

    dekparker Well-Known Member

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    mince pies and Wensleydale, none of that german rubbish , support the british :p or at least get used to it because by this time next year its all you'll have
     
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  3. Dar

    Darfield138 Well-Known Member

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    That's interesting, a bit more in line with my thinking really. I noticed (who could fail to) that the loudest voices for brexit tended to be the right leaning politicians. However, Dennis Skinner, Len McKluskey and let's face it Jezza seemed pro-brexit as was Tony Benn. I voted out after prolonged research into the arguments either way, most of which weren't widely reported. I found my own reasons and some tended to be more of what you could call a socialist leaning if you wished
     
  4. dek

    dekparker Well-Known Member

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    the left wing socialist movement that was in favour of leave was given no platform whatsoever , the last thing that needed an airing was that there were socialists against the eu,they simply did not fit into the leave stereotype of right wing fascism. a stereotype that was being used as a reason for staying well away from leave
     
  5. Pongo101

    Pongo101 Member

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    100% sure, the General EU posters and funded by the EU posters generally give it away, I’ll post some pictures, because it’s obvious, that what can’t speak can’t lie, like Farage!!!!
     
  6. dek

    dekparker Well-Known Member

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    in 1975 the common market and the pro remain side gave assurances that there were going to be no further political union and certainly no transfer of powers in law to europe,

    thatcher was given assurances that the EU would limit majority voting when she agreed to the single european act... this majority block voting was then used to push masstricht through.
    the following is a quote by thatcher after masstricht was signed ''We got our fingers burnt. The most silly thing to do when you get your fingers burnt is to bring forward a bigger and worse Act which is the equivalent of putting your head in the fire.' 'we got our fingers burnt' referred to the single european act.

    tony blair promised us a referendum after the maastricht debacle

    these assurances wern't on the side of buses,they were given by the eec ,eu and our politicians...they also tend to be misleading, either that or they are outright liars.
     
  7. Pongo101

    Pongo101 Member

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    And you’re point is!!!
     
  8. Pongo101

    Pongo101 Member

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    simple stunning when facts are laid at peoples doors we jump off and rant alp out something else,
     
  9. Sco

    Scoff Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, but I call BS on that statement. Further political integration was written in from the start (Treaty of Paris 1951 and Treaty of Rome 1957), and Harold Wilson spoke about it in the Commons in 1967. Heath said something similar in 1972. It was in the "No" campaign leaflet that was distributed for the referendum as one of the main reasons for voting no.



    You can read the office "No" Campaign leaflet below. Pg 3 is the one you want ("Why You Should Vote No" is the leaflet).

    https://digital.library.lse.ac.uk/collections/brexit/1975
     
  10. Dar

    Darfield138 Well-Known Member

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    I am not really sure what point you are trying to make.
     
  11. sadbrewer

    sadbrewer Well-Known Member

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    I'm slightly unsure what that picture is meant to represent, but I can tell you from experience , (as a Remain voter at that time) that the public were not told that by the establishment....both Labour and The Tories were massively in favour of Remain, far more than in 2016, the only real heavyweight politicians who spoke out against it were Tony Benn and Enoch Powell. Personally I mistakenly trusted the ' reasonable ' centre ground over right and left.

    Ted Heath's Cabinet papers ...released in 2002/3 are very illuminating and illustrate the duplicity of the case they would present. They discuss how to present loss of Sovereignty as 'shared' Sovereignty...they also say how it will be 15 years before the public will realise what they have voted for and it will be too late to Leave.( these papers are in the public domain....and take some ploughing through)
    An article from an Irish journalist in the Belfast Telegraph ( strictly neutral as you might imagine, staying unmolested through the Troubles ) accurately summarises my memory of that time.

    Edward Heath, the Conservative prime minister, had signed the Treaty of Rome in January 1973 and, at that point, the UK joined what was then usually called the Common Market. That was done on the basis of a commitment that we would retain our national sovereignty.
    Indeed, in June 1971, a White Paper had been sent to every home in the UK, promising that, “there is no question of Britain losing essential sovereignty”.
    Then, in a television broadcast in January 1973 to mark the signing of the Treaty of Rome, Edward Heath went even further.
    He said: “There are some in this country who fear that, in going into Europe, we shall in some way sacrifice independence and sovereignty. These fears, I need hardly say, are completely unjustified.”
    Two years later, there was a referendum, on June 5, 1975, and the majority of voters supported the UK’s continued membership of the Common Market, now the European Union.
    But that vote was on the basis of assurances which were dishonest.
    Both Edward Heath and Harold Wilson knew that, in joining the Common Market, they were ceding sovereignty and joining a political project which had as its end goal the creation of a federal United States of Europe.
    The preamble to the Treaty of Rome clearly stated that the objective was “ever-closer union”.
    Moreover, with the passage of time and the release of Government papers under the 30-year rule, we now know that both Labour and Conservative governments had been briefed, time and time again, about the loss of national sovereignty. They were also warned that the ultimate aim was political union across Europe.

    The loss of national sovereignty was confirmed by Judge Bruce Morgan on April 9, 2001. He said that, when the UK joined the Common Market in the 1970s, parliament and the British people “quite voluntarily surrendered the once seemingly immortal concept of the sovereignty of parliament and legislative freedom”.

    So, when folk talk about deception and misrepresentation in relation to Europe, the greatest deception of all was that it is just a “common market” and not much more.

    That was the basis on which 67% of voters backed the European Community in 1975, but it was a lie.
     
  12. sadbrewer

    sadbrewer Well-Known Member

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    You call it B.S.....this article from the Guardian before the 2016 referendum would suggest it's far from B.S..

    https://www.theguardian.com/media/g...-european-bias-in-1975-affect-the-referendum?

    The author points out the imbalance in press reporting...

    People were to be asked a single, simple question: “Do you think that the United Kingdom should stay in the European Community (the Common Market)?”

    They were under no illusion which answer was favoured by their newspapers. Yes, yes, yes said the Daily Mail, Daily Telegraph, Daily Express, the Sun, the Times, the Financial Times, the Guardian, Daily Mirror and Daily Record. Their combined daily circulation at the time was just shy of 15m (giving them a readership of some 45m).

    By contrast, the no camp was represented by the Communist Party’s Morning Star, the short-lived workers’ co-operative title, the Scottish Daily News, and the Dundee Courier. Together, they sold fewer than 150,000.
    So Harold Wilson’s Labour government was able to rely on the country’s main propaganda vehicles to back his call for a yes vote.
     
  13. pompey_red

    pompey_red Well-Known Member

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    And there are people trying to argue that newspapers do not influence people thoughts. Strange old world.
     
  14. dek

    dekparker Well-Known Member

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    scoff ,the government said the would be no further sacrifices of powers and sovereignty to europe,this was in direct contravention to the treaty of rome.

    fast forward to 1986 and thatcher signed the single european act,this act did away with the 'economic' title as the act was about more than just economics,it also did away with the uk's veto on certain matters,it also gave europe more powers , which was what the government in 1975 said would not happen and thatcher only signed this after assurances from the eec that there would be no future majority voting, ,Qualified Majority Voting was then introduced, where if the UK wants to block a bad decision, we have to get enough countries on side to represent 38 percent of Europe’s population. Given that 80 percent of Europe relies on Brussels for handouts and bailouts, the chances of blocking anything which harms a perpetual net contributor like the UK, are very remote

    then in 1992 major signed masstricht, again going against what was promised prior to the 75 referendum
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2018

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